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Topic: This permeable paving.....< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Tony McC
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Posted: 12 Mar. 2014,10:49 QUOTE

If the CBPPs are jointed with sand or the wrong type of grit, then it is bound to fail. This is largely down to poor training.

In cahoots with Interpave, I helped create a 1-day training course for CBPP, half theory, half practical, but the useless gits responsible for delivering the training never actually bothered. At one point, in a move designed purely to annoy me by refusing to let me lead the first few courses, train the trainers as it were, they had a retuired overweight, unfit bricklayer leading the course and he had to ask the lads how to set out a 90 herringbone, which then destroyed what little credibility he had with his trainees.

So, while some of the manufacturers have cannibalised the Interpave/pavingexpert CBPP course to present their own simpler, half-day courses for residential projects, there is no effective training for commercial projects, which is why we see so many problems. I've shouted as loudly as I can. It's down to Interpave to ensure the training is both available and actually delivered (by competent person rather than feckwitts or salesbods!)


When cleaning is undertaken, it *must* be done with the right sort of kit. A standard road sweeper is NOT the right sort of kit. And when cleaning is complete, the jointing must be topped-up using the right sort of grit. Again, this comes down to training.

As I've already said, I know of CBPP surfaces approaching a decade of trouble-free service because they were properly installed and then properly maintained.


As for the cost, I've been saying for 10 years that it is WRONG of the manufacturers to charge more per m for CBPP than for conventional CBPs. Think about it: with that 6mm or so joint, there is actually *less* concrete per m with CBPPs, so how can it be right to charge more? I've heard all the arguments about recovering R&D costs, smaller sales volumes, and so on, but it's not acceptable to whinge about poor sales voulmes whilst not actively doing very much to promote the products via sensible pricing!

And again: if I can get a grant to stuff my loft and walls with insulation, and to hang a new boiler in the kitchen, why can't I get a grant to make my new driveway permeable? Flooding and the way we handle surface water is just as important as carbon emissions and energy usage....as many have seen to their cost over the winter!


Now that I've finally got the machine-lay page finished and published, my next big project will probably be CBPPs. Like it or lump it, this is a technology that we as a society will have to adopt because dumping surface water into the sewer systems is becoming increasingly unacceptable.


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sy76uk
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Posted: 13 Mar. 2014,19:17 QUOTE

I agree with your point about poor training being responsible for failure as far as domestic work is concerned but not on commercial projects. On all of the commercial installations I've been involved with we have to work to the specifications we are given regardless of my experience or opinion.

One real plus point for permiable paving for me is that you can lay it in all weathers ;)
[IMG]http://i952.photobucket.com/albums....MG]
[IMG]http://i952.photobucket.com/albums....MG]


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lutonlagerlout
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Posted: 13 Mar. 2014,20:22 QUOTE

Quote (Tony McC @ 12 Mar. 2014,08:49)
they had a retuired overweight, unfit bricklayer leading the course

2 outta 3 aint bad :)

LLL


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Tony McC
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Posted: 14 Mar. 2014,09:38 QUOTE

Quote (sy76uk @ 13 Mar. 2014,18:17)
On all of the commercial installations I've been involved with we have to work to the specifications we are given regardless of my experience or opinion.

Oh, the spec is often right, but the implementation and, critically, the supervision is often wanting,

I've yet to meet a contractor working on a commercial project who was asked to provide evidence of relevant training before undertaking CBPP. The usual 'vetting' runs summat like....

"Can you lay this permeable block stuff?"

"Yeah, not a bother!"

"Get on with it, then"

This is how we end up with jobs laid on Type 1, jobs laid on sand, jobs jointed with KDS, jobs with all cuts omitted and filled with grit instead, and jobs with ineffective or non-existent edge restraint.

On one high-profile job here in Warrington, the eejit contractor convinced the site manager that the spec was wrong because there was not enough fines in the "hardcore", which led to the 20-5 being sent back and replaced with DTp1, with predictable results 3 months later.


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sy76uk
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Posted: 14 Mar. 2014,18:48 QUOTE

I've never come across any of the problems you've mentioned above Tony. The first job I did in CBPP was back in 2003. It was a hospital car park in Birmingham city centre. There were a lot of protected tree's in the area and the only way the could do the car park was if they did it in permiable.

On that job we had 2 types of grit to use. 2-5mm for the bedding layer and 0-2mm for the jointing. We ended up running out of 25kg bags of grit for jointing and used the bedding grit for the last 100 or so m2 for brushing in and guess what, that was the only area that didn't hold water. Lesson learned.

The job I posted photo's of above is of a big tesco's car park. All of the parking bay's are CBPP and the roads are tarmac. The tarmac roads are cambered in the centre and the parking bays have a 100mm valley in the centre so that the they act as a soak away for the whole job and the rain water is stored for re-cycling. Nice idea but it get's cleaned by a road sweeper constantly and they just suck all the grit out. We were called back out to the job about a year later re-joint the whole job which was 2400m2. We had to lift and re lay alot of the edges too. Nothing to do with the way we laid it, purely down to poor maintanence.

I've been there once since too. I Did a patio for someone that lives near there and mentioned to them that I did the paving at there local tesco. After nipping there at lunch time I'd wished I hadn't because it looked a right flipping mess.

IMPO the best way to acheive a good finish with the stuff is if it's laid with 100mm of  2-5mm pea gravel screed on a peckered tarmac sub-base with 2-5mm pea gravel brushed into the joints.

I agree with your point's that it need's to be installed and maintained correctly for it to stand a chance but even when it is once the bedding layer get's full of silt it becomes non permiable anyway.

When I say I've done loads of it I'd like to explain that up util early 2012 I worked as a ganger for a big paving firm doing big commercial projects. We would get down at least 500m2 a week on big area's and it was 50/50 permiable-non permiable.

CBPP is a good idea and it keeps the lad's working in the winter but I think the system need's improving.


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Tony McC
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Posted: 15 Mar. 2014,12:19 QUOTE

The 2-5 for bedding should have been used for jointing and the 0-2 for jointing is the same spec as KDS!

It's not just the system that needs improving, it's the level of understanding by clients, contractors and the alleged maintainers. Too much CBPP has been sent out there with little or no real understainding of its idiosyncracies.


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ruler

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