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irishpaving
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Posted: 26 Mar. 2010,19:32 QUOTE

You could just for a normal kerb unit and use a gully instead. You would make sure that the water will drain easily into the soil area you mentioned.

If not a gully then you could look at the option of the mini beany from marshalls


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paddytt
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Posted: 21 Mar. 2012,00:36 QUOTE

We have an old thatched house, with some damp in one wall.  The outside level is higher than the floor level, but the outside is a pathway so we can't lower the level below the floor.  The typical way to fix this would be to have a channel covered with a grating, running along the wall, or a french drain along the wall.  

Does anyone have any experience of using permeable block paving, with a drain below, to achieve a "breathable" solution beside such a  wall?

thanks

TT
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lutonlagerlout
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Posted: 21 Mar. 2012,07:49 QUOTE

permeable paving is so finickity  to install and has so many "cant do's " with it ,that most on here do not go near it
my local merchant are selling off the last of their stock for £8.50 per metre
far better to use a workaround as detailed here I did this recently for a client and it left him with a 100mm gap from his path to his wall, 150 below dpc
LLL


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paddytt
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Posted: 25 Mar. 2012,00:07 QUOTE

permeable paving looks so straightforward to install, why is it so difficult and do any of the "can't do's" apply to a pathway rather than a driveway?

thanks

TT
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wcroz99
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Posted: 25 Sep. 2012,17:30 QUOTE

I've install permeable paving on a couple of occasions as that's what clients have specifically asked for.  Personally, I try to steer clear of permeable paving myself

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lutonlagerlout
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Posted: 25 Sep. 2012,18:08 QUOTE

we have priced it a couple of times and its double the cost
i have seen it done on community carparks and they turn into weedfests in 6 months
welcome to the brew cabin croz
nice webby
LLL :)


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Pablo
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Posted: 25 Sep. 2012,20:27 QUOTE

I've been forced to sit in the house today due to the weather and I've been having conversations with the voices in my head about this very thing and a few others to boot. We're all going to have to adapt to this new climate that we've been seeing over the last few years and we're going to have to do it for less money. Just about everyjob this year for me has seen delays in starting or finishing due to the rain I've tried to adapt but it's a losing battle sometimes. In the good old days you could jump to another job but the workload isn't there anymore so you end up scratching around and somethimes making more work for yourself cleaning up than you should've. I've not pointed a patio in the traditional way for a couple of years now it's been too risky with the weather and I've got half a dozen lawns waiting to be finished but the soils too wet and the clients don't always have the patience. The machines we use to build with are sometimes our biggest enemies when it rains because of the soil compaction and mushing up meaning the water runs off and doesn't get into the ground. If like me you live in an area with very heavy clay then digging holes in the ground is pointless. Permeable paving is cost prohibitive and due to the amout of rain we get I'd say the design is possibly already obsolete. If the weathers been wet then the grounds water logged and the attenuation area is going to be full meaning any more rain will overflow into the storm system anyway and the whole construction has been a waste of money. Add to that an average driveway is 60-120m2 if you were to dig down 600mm you'd be removing between 36 and 72m3 a normal tipper only carries between 6 and 9m3 and you're going to spend a fortune on doing that sort of thing in an urban area. It's the sort of thing that ticks a box and make it look like you've been good to the environment but with the amount of rain we'll probably see in the future and the demand on landfill space becoming critical is digging big pointless holes the right thing to do. And don't get me started about rainwater harvesting on private properties why would you spend tens of thousands so you can save a hundred quid on your rates.

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lutonlagerlout
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Posted: 25 Sep. 2012,22:43 QUOTE

ever hear of paragraphs pablo?
that day saturday when you were on your bike for a gazillion miles was a lovely day :;):
nearly every day when i look at the weather i look to the north west and NI and its raining
myself MSH and DDD live in the eastern region and its very dry
rain is rarely an issue for us
LLL


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mickg
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Posted: 26 Sep. 2012,00:19 QUOTE

yeah ditto with the paragraph, it makes your eyes bleed trying to decipher it :)

the last 2 days in the north west it has lashed it down continuous all day without any breaks and is set to last the rest of the week plus 3 days partially lost last week where you cant get your work done, in all the time I have worked outside I have never known a wetter year than 2012 but I refuse to stay at home and we get done what we can

this is what we have to contend with in the Costa Del North West while you lucky lot south of Watford Gap bask in sweltering heat and endure hose pipe bans :)

with regards to the conversation we had on Saturday Tony and what you said it cost you to point that patio, £7 I think you said, I cant risk spending all day using conventional sand and cement to then have a heavy downpour at the end of the day what could wash it all away plus stain the paving which is why I have opted to use Marshalls Weatherpoint 365 on all my work

It's a lot more expensive than sand and cement but it means we can complete the work even if its raining

back on topic
since October 2008 I have only been ask twice to quote for permeable paving, I don't know any M2 figures of the volume of permeable paving installed within the domestic market but I would bet its not that high when compared to conventional block paving what can be installed using various methods but still conform to the current driveway legislation


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lutonlagerlout
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Posted: 26 Sep. 2012,07:38 QUOTE

i agree mick,if i worked up your or pablos area i would use a different material
i worked with a brickie from bury before and he reckoned to lose a day a week on average over the year  in that area

we probably get about 5-6 unworkable days per year
once i get my bonsai riddle  i will develop the plastering sand a bit farther
maybe a touch of rapid set :;):
cheers LLL


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wcroz99
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Posted: 26 Sep. 2012,18:53 QUOTE

Some great points there Pablo, thats exactly why I try to avoid it as its a bit of a waste of time in my opinion.  But, there are people out there that are willing to paying extra if they believe they are saving the environment.  Perhaps with all the wet weather we have had this year, we may see customers requesting permeable paving more often.

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Tony McC
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Posted: 28 Sep. 2012,09:11 QUOTE

Permeable block paving (CBPP) just hasn't taken off for residential driveways, despite all the bullish predictions from the manufacturers back in 2008 when the comedy legislation was launched' because there are significantly cheaper ways of achiveing the same result.

If you take the average British driveway, which is 48.5m², why would you excavate to, say, 450mm and generate and additional 14m³ of spoil (two good wagon loads) when you could drain the lot to a 2m³ soakaway? It's economic and logistical madness!

Slightly different scenario on commercial schemes, where the case for CBPP is much stronger, and I get angry when I see brand new commercial parking areas, such as the two bloody huge new supermarkets built in nearby Leigh in the last 12 months, being surfaced with blacktop. Firstly, what sort of corrupt planning scheme allows an impermeable surface to be specified on such large and low-lying areas within a known flood plain, and secondly, why are the economics so skewed to favour impermeable paving? There should be financial incentives, whether it's via tax advantages or punitive planning charges, that make permeable paving (and I'm quite happy to see permeable blacktop, if that's what designers prefer) the default surface of choice.

Returning to the residential market, I've been out to assess four so-called CBPP installations this year and in every case, the contractor didn't have a chuffing clue what they were doing, ranging from the pillocks in Warrington who used crudely broken 3x2s as a sub-base to the moron in Chadderton who used at least 20 bags of KDS on a 40m² CBPP driveway. Now, we all know there are contractors out there who *do* know how to do the job, but they are then pricing the work accurately, whereas these eejits have no understanding of the procedure and materials, and are consequently under-pricing the job and winning the work on cost alone.

Finally: rainwater harvesting. It may seem like a crazy idea to us in the north and west of these islands, Pablo, but it's of HUGE interest in the chalk areas of Lower Britain where hosepipe bans and parchged summers are the norm for many and the opportunity to have their own private supply of water for the garden and/or washing the car, is highly attractive.

I designed a RWH scheme in Kent where the property owner had a 1 acre small holding that was slowly dtying due to the hosepipe ban. Installing a harvesting system for the 80m² roof and 140m² driveway now provides just about enough water to get them through a normal summer. It cost roughly 8,000 quid extra for the tank and the pump and the pipework, but the client considers that to be excellent valuie as it means the smallholding and garden thrive, his metered water bills are reduced, and he's looking at a service life of at least 25 years. If growing veg, keeping chickens and ponies, and having a stunning garden were your hobby, would 320 quid/year (8,000 ÷ 25) or less than a pound per day seem like money well spent?


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Nigel Walker
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Posted: 28 Sep. 2012,12:21 QUOTE

I have installed 3 permeable paving jobs in last 5 years. One was for an Eco Development, the other two were on large flat courtyard / parking areas that had buildings on 3 sides.
On the above projects Permeable block paving was justified and worked great.

However, installing permeable paving on normal domestic drives is total nonsense.
What is the point in spending an extra 25-35% for permeable paving when the water all goes to the same place. Let me explain - Traditional block paving - we install Aco Channels at bottom of driveway or at the lowest point, which are connected into a soakaway, with an overflow into surface water drains if the ground is not ideal for soakaways.. Permeable paving - water drains through the blocks and sub stone, drains to the lowest point and then into a soakaway.

How can anyone justify the extra spend when it does the same thing - if you comply with the regs.

Someone has installed a Permeable drive locally. Its 2.5m wide by 6m long - single car driveway.  Drive slopes from garage to the road by about 2m, there are walls on both sides of the driveway.  There is no where for a soakaway, unless you are gonna pump water up 2m in height. Where the hell is the water going from the permeable drive ?  Its gonna collect under the paving at the lowest point and drain slowly onto the highway.  Bloody crazy !

I agree with Tony, that all commercial projects should be Permeable, where possible.  How many supermarket car parks have you been in where there are hundreds of puddles - either badly laid tar or drains cant cope.  

Agree with Mick regarding worst year for rain that i have known. Kind of getting used to wearing waterproofs on almost daily basis.
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Tony McC
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Posted: 28 Sep. 2012,13:47 QUOTE

Here we go, the new council-owned Elf Centre cum Gym in Warrington, opened by that Mrs Windsor back in June...



...a great advertisement for blacktop in place of permeable paving if ever there was one!


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rab1
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Posted: 28 Sep. 2012,14:55 QUOTE

most of the large jobs we work on now are a mixture of black top and permeable block, could be wrong but i'm sure its the regs up here.

now please tell me all about hose pipe bans and warm dry summers. my grandad once told me about these strange things. :)


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sy76uk
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Posted: 10 Mar. 2014,19:50 QUOTE

My experience of permeable paving is that it only works for a couple of years. I've done loads of it. once the joints get mucky and the bedding layer fills with silt no water gets through so it's pointless.

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Tony McC
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Posted: 11 Mar. 2014,09:21 QUOTE

There's summat wrong if the joints are silting-up to the point of losing permeability after just a couple of years. I've seen research where 8-10 year old pavements in commercial areas are functioning perfectly well even with 60-70% silting. Is the site haveliy silted? Is there a lot of detritus washed across the surface?

One thing that rarely gets mentioned with permeable block paving CBPP is that it needs annual maintenance in the form of thorough sweeping to remove any surface vegetation from the joints and possibly a blast with a jet washer to loosen the grit in the joints, which may also then need topping-up.

Properly maintained, you should be looking at a minimum 20 year service life.


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sy76uk
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Posted: 11 Mar. 2014,15:50 QUOTE

I couldn't tell you about every job I've done in permiable because I've done more than I can remember over the years and it has all been for a big paving firm so it wouldn't have been me that got the phone call a few years down the line to say that the paving is holding water but I've been sent to plenty of jobs that have needed lifting and re laying due to the problems I mentioned above and a fair few have been on sites that are only a couple of years old. All of them have been big commercial jobs too by the way so they have all had the proper sub-base installed.

I think some of the problems are,
1, If the grit used for jointing is too fine it's too hard for the water to find it's way through even when it's brand new so after a few years of dirt in the joint's it doesn't stand a chance.

2, If the area is cleaned often by a road sweeper all the jointing grit is sucked out and the joints just get filled up with dirt and sealed.

3, If the site is half permiable, half tarmac and the permiable area is used as a drainage area then all the muck gathers over the block paved area and seals it all.

Just my point of view from my own experience.

I have done some really nice area's in permiable though, I'm not against it. I just don't think it does what it says on the tin as well as it should.


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lutonlagerlout
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Posted: 11 Mar. 2014,18:47 QUOTE

its nigh impossible here to get the correct stone so nobody bothers
plus its mainly clay so its unsuitable from the start
LLL


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lemoncurd1702
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Posted: 11 Mar. 2014,22:46 QUOTE

I've mentioned this on another thread.
I have received specs for commercial works where the specified base is type 1 with coarse sand and permeable paving jointed with kiln dried.
It's doomed to failure until some body or other polices this. If needs be this body should insist on a relay, that should make the rest comply.
Personally I hate the stuff, the finish looks shite.

Besides the extra cost of excavation the producers of permeable blocks somehow believe the paving should also be more expensive even though most of it is based on run of the mill existing products.
Do they really believe that the average consumer gives enough of a f**k to pay extra for an inferior finish.
Especially if they live on a hill :)


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ruler

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